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So who all is getting the Hypertech Power Programmer?

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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject: So who all is getting the Hypertech Power Programmer? Reply with quote

I see that Hypertech has finally made a power programmer for the 99-04 Jeep Wranglers...who's all getting it?

I'm pretty certain I will...


Just curious if anyone has heard anything about the perf numbers, besides what Hypertech claims.



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ehirner
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure this is like all the other snake oil out there. I won't be buying it, let alone really even look at it.
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I would classify it as snake oil,it actually does something. THEIR Dyno charts show a +11RWHP@4950 and +13ft/lb@2800 on 87octane and +14RWHP@4230 and +21ft/lb@2900 increase with 91octane.

Both of these look pretty good, seeing how those are pretty close to the gains of a CAI and exhaust upgrade. I do know that the optimum shift point is 3k rpms so I think that the best gain is in the torque value.

If of course its all on the "up and up". I've seen a few HPP do really good things with other vehicles. Nothing beats a custom tune, but I've YET to see some one offer it for the TJ's, or any other Jeep model for that matter. I think I may be stuck with just trying this...still debating.

I would like to see an independant dyno test it and not try and lump 4 different years with 3 different models into the same chart...I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Here is a pic of "their" dyno charts:


Just kind of hoping that their tuning would take more advantage of the CAI, header, and exhaust work that I've done.

Dunno...wishful thinking? Possibly.

At any rate, I've emailed Hypertech the following:

Dear Hypertech,

"I see that your now making a product for the TJ model of Jeeps, but I have a question regarding your RWHP and ft/lb numbers. You provide one dyno chart with 4 different model years using 3 different models. How is this possible? Did you simply average everything and just lump it all together? I can logically see how you could come to this type of graph if you were using a motor dyno, but your site clearly states that these runs were done on a chasis dyno. Do you have individual dyno charts for the individual model years, for each indvidual vehicle? I would really like to see those if you have them.

I am very interested in purchasing your product for my Jeep, but I'm having difficulty understanding how you came about with your dyno sheets and numbers."

I'll let you all know what kind of response I get...

KnightFire
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Last edited by KnightFire on Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ehirner
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightFire wrote:
I don't think I would classify it as snake oil,it actually does something. THEIR Dyno charts show a +11RWHP@4950 and +13ft/lb on 87octane and +14RWHP@4230 and +21ft/lb increase with 91octane.

Who actually runs their Jeep engine at nearly 5000rpm?

WASTE OF MONEY!!!!
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, did you read my whole post? Yes I already stated that...which is why I wanted more info from the company and am asking questions for other owners that may have insight to the product in question...

I guess I'm not as quick to completely discount the merit of a product as others are...When I find something that peaks my interest I try do some research, ask questions, and try to get hard data couple that with intelligent insight and responses before I come to a decision. I know that tuning is an awefullly important role in modifying vehicles, which is why I'm so interested in this product. This would be the first time I get a product like this (if I do get it), I usually get custom tuning or do it myself via DFI...

You say it's junk...thats great...now can you state why? I'm not trying to persuade anyone here...just polling for the data to make an informed decision.

KnightFire
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ehirner
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightFire wrote:
You say it's junk...thats great...now can you state why?

Because all this type of product are false advertising. The make their money off people who really believe the product is working. They make claims of a couple extra HP here and a couple extra HP there. Then people buy it and want to believe it's actually working to make them feel better about dropping wads of money on the product.

Tornado??? snake oil
"cold air" intakes??? snake oil
performance chips??? snake oil

Don't be this guy. We warned him but he bought it anyway and insists it makes his engine roar.
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ThePhantum
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ehirner wrote:
Don't be this guy. We warned him but he bought it anyway and insists it makes his engine roar.


Yea, the same arguments that apply there apply to this as well.
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great...more opinions based on...ummm YES more opinions!. Thanks fellas. DATA and facts, where are your numbers, proof is what I'm looking for, looking for people that have already tested it, people that know people that has tested it...I don't want conjecture, I can come up with that on my own.

Actually I've seen the Hypertechs dyno proven to work. Have you seen them dyno proven not to?
We've tested the OEM vs JET vs Hypertech vs custom tuning for a company to prove the certain gains of custom tuning for his website...guess what, JET is junk, I can say that because I have DATA to back it up, Hypertech actually does some good, and of course custom tuning is by far superior.

I also disagree about the CAI, they do help, I'm willing to bet that you don't think headers and exhaust modifications make any difference to an engines performance...right? I'm actually willing to prove that they do, bring your OEM Jeep up my way, we'll race, simple enough. If I lose, I'll be the first to state, "you were right, modifications to a 4.0L are just a stupid waste of time".

By the way I LOVE this part of that thread:
"Don't bother, they are not worth it on a TJ. If you've got a 4.0L in your TJ, almost every ounce of power has been squeezed out of the engine. It's been around for decades and has been updated numerous times over the years."

GREAT Logic, thank god I didn't listen to it when I started rebuilding my 350...I'd still be running 11s! ROFLOL...

Probably against upgrading camshafts and heads too...right?

WHAT DATA do you possess that proves your theories that this is "snake oil"? I'm sorry but the, "...because I said so..." theory stopped working as a logical reason for me over 3 decades ago.

LOL

You know what...
Nevermind...I got what I wanted from you two...2 marks against the Hypertech Tuner...based on...opinion.
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Code3TJ
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no experience with Hypertech's Jeep stuff. That being said, I do have experience with their 7.3 Powerstroke stuff. The one I rode in was faster than stock. However, if you go to Ford diesel boards, it's hit or miss. Some swear by it, others flame it and it usually turns into a fight. With the diesels, some have found higher EGT's and sloppy shifting though that's also not a constant. So there's my though it's not worth much. Wink
BTW, how'd the gaskets for your rockers turn out?
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code3TJ wrote:
I have no experience with Hypertech's Jeep stuff. That being said, I do have experience with their 7.3 Powerstroke stuff. The one I rode in was faster than stock. However, if you go to Ford diesel boards, it's hit or miss. Some swear by it, others flame it and it usually turns into a fight. With the diesels, some have found higher EGT's and sloppy shifting though that's also not a constant. So there's my though it's not worth much. Wink
BTW, how'd the gaskets for your rockers turn out?


Cool...the Hypertech Tuner seems to be pretty big hit on my Hemi board on the 03 models. They havn't made one for the 04 models yet, so I'm still waiting on that front.

That being said, no one has tried one on a Jeep that I can find...which led me to my post here.

The gaskets turned out GREAT! I love em'!!! Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[engineer hat on]
OK, let's talk about the facts

1) On the latter 4.0's, the fuel rail assembly, specifically the injectors, are tuned to the stock air intake, head porting, cylinder bore/stroke, compression ratio, and cam lift/duration. You can try draw more the air into the engine, and/or change the timing curve, and/or the shift points (on autos) but if you can't push any more fuel through the injectors and/or flow air better through the heads and/or increase the compression ratio, and/or increase the lift/duration of the cam and/or push it out of the exhaust any better, there are no real gains.

2) The 4.0 rates at 195HP @3000RPM. At the rear wheels on a dyno, it is usually around 30HP lower...around 155-165HP at the rear wheels. The Hypertec chart not only shows gains in HP at 4320RPM, well after HP generation has declined...but it shows maximum horsepower in a stock configuration being made at around 4500RRPM...which is dead wrong.

Those are the facts.

How were the dyno test runs done? Looking at those curves, it appears the the dyno run was performed at WOT with the chip and with an steadily increasing throttle in stock configuration....which makes the comparing the curves the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Seems like snake oil to me. Wink
[/engineer hat off]

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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thephantum wrote:
[engineer hat on]
OK, let's talk about the facts

1) On the latter 4.0's, the fuel rail assembly, specifically the injectors, are tuned to the stock air intake, head porting, cylinder bore/stroke, compression ratio, and cam lift/duration. You can try draw more the air into the engine, and/or change the timing curve, and/or the shift points (on autos) but if you can't push any more fuel through the injectors and/or flow air better through the heads and/or increase the compression ratio, and/or increase the lift/duration of the cam and/or push it out of the exhaust any better, there are no real gains.

2) The 4.0 rates at 195HP @3000RPM. At the rear wheels on a dyno, it is usually around 30HP lower...around 155-165HP at the rear wheels. The Hypertec chart not only shows gains in HP at 4320RPM, well after HP generation has declined...but it shows maximum horsepower in a stock configuration being made at around 4500RRPM...which is dead wrong.

Those are the facts.

How were the dyno test runs done? Looking at those curves, it appears the the dyno run was performed at WOT with the chip and with an steadily increasing throttle in stock configuration....which makes the comparing the curves the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Seems like snake oil to me. Wink
[/engineer hat off]

Mr. Green


THERE WE GO! Thank you!!!

To answer your question about the dyno charts...I have no idea, thats why I emailed the company asking for more info (above post).

Oh BTW OEM injectors CAN flow more fuel than what the OEM program allows. The tuning just has to alter the pulse width and duration of the injectors. Companies never provide injectors that will go static on an OEM application...there is a lot of play room. I've seen OEM 28lb/hr injectors feed more than enough fuel to a 600HP motor, its all in the tuning Smile

One other thing...how else do you preform a dyno session...its always WOT...least all the ones I've ever been to, were at WOT.

KnightFire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That might be true about the injectors (as a matter of fact, I don't doubt it) but increased fuel input does not help the heads push exhaust out the ass end any faster. The chip certainly ain't gonna do that...porting, bigger valves, more lift/longer duration cams do that. Dumping more fuel into the cylinder does not increase it's compression ratio...bore and stroke dictate that. So what do you really gain, aside from 10 or 12 HP (which is dubious based on that chart) at RPM's that none of us are gonna see on the street or on the trail?

That dyno curve for the stock engine is not at WOT. Ever lived in a state that does Nazi like emissions tests? Guess what they use? Dyno's (I grew up in NY and that's what they use...I'm sure Troy could concur, CA is even more Nazi about emissions). They run those tests as you would normally drive in a stop and go driving situation...I've watched them do it. Mr. Green
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE:
This is what I got as a response from Hypertech:

"Dean

The engine/drive train and computer calibrations are the same on all three models so therefore the dyno charts are identical. There are no other charts available. Thanks

Jim"

Here is my reply:
"Jim,
What tables are altered for the 99-04 Wrangler tune? I have been to a LOT of dyno sessions and have never seen two exact model vehicles with the same power train configuration ever give the same exact dyno numbers. How is it that you had 3 different vehicles of 4 different model years give the exact same dyno figures?! I am quite perplexed by that.

Also, you show that the OEM baseline is still making power well after 3k RPMs when its been shown on a dyno that the TJ model Wrangler falls flat on its face after 3k RPMs, how do you account for this? Hopefully you can clear these questions up for me.

Myself and fellow board members of a Jeep forum eagerly await your response.

Dean"

So far I'm less than thrilled with their response to my questions. Now I'm leaning towards, most likely NOT to get this product...we'll see what they have to say. I too found the dyno graphs VERY dubious...which is why I'm emailing the company Smile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey I was with some hookers in Mexico and now I got this rash, er I said to much, where can I get some of that snake oil?
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