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Very close. Edit: (I'm a Jeep owner) edit: pics

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IBTJn
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Location: Just Outside of Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

outcold wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I went to three dealers. I have been in sales for about 10 years and sold cars for a short time. I hammered these dealers hard. The second dealer tried to sell me one for about 100 dollars more a month than a similar priced one. I laughed and started spouting off about "you guys are crazy?!, I just got a price from the other dealer for 100 less per month and their jeep was more expensive!," He came back a short time later about 110 less per month. Clowns! What's shity is that some people probably fall for that shit.

And can someone please tell me what a Dana 44 is? Also if a 3.73 can be a Dana44?
Thanks,
Rich

The Dana44 is an axle assembly. Most commonly it'll be 3:73's if it has a D44. But you can easily look at the sticker (or invoice) and see...or simply crawl under and look at the tag on the axle. It is heavier duty than the standard Dana35C...which is the standard rear axle in the TJ's. This is why it is the preferred factory axle for Jeepers.

Now, if you've been in the car business before, how come you didn't work the deal backwards? I mean, you know first hand how they work. They need to make a profit...any way you cut it. So why not negotiate that? That is exactly what I do on all our purchases. I have for years. It takes the guess work out of how much they made/make. Besides, you go looking for payment, and they've got ya'. Work the sales price. The payments will work themselves out. Retail any trades yourself. You cannot ask them to do retail to wholesale, or wholesale to retail...that is a no win for them. You should know this.

I found a dealership (Dodge) that I've purchase 3 trucks in the past 3 years for that I simply bypass the sales people and emailed the new car manager. I told him the deal (black & white) and asked him if he would work the deal my way. He did, and he's won me over. They get first shot at any of our business...or family's business. Not once have they attempted to screw us. I knew exactly what I wanted & researched invoice prior to contacting them...that's how I know.
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'drack
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a dinky little pic that I tossed together awhiles back to show the physical difference in diffs...


Might make it a bit easier to identify which one is under there, 3.73's came with both the 35 and 44 rearends.
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outcold
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what else could it be? It is a 3.73 so does that make it a Dana regardless?
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IBTJn
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

outcold wrote:
So what else could it be? It is a 3.73 so does that make it a Dana regardless?
Yes...Dana either way. The pics' drack posted for you should help clarify it for you. The D44 is just a heavier duty axle...and of course costs a little more, but worth it.

If you compare this to the pic drack posted, this is a Dana 44 rear axle at a little different angle. It's more oblong shaped than the Dana 35 if you'll notice.



Hopefully that'll help a bit more
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outcold
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks alot guys Very Happy Some of the sites I have posted before with my V-dub were loaded with asshats. You guys seem pretty flippin cool. Thanks again for the help. I will probably be making my decision today.

As far as why I didn't just go to the sales manager, I didn't know I wanted a Jeep yet. I needed the salesman to educate me on the Wrangler and take me for test drives. I have since drivin about 6 wranglers and have narrowed it down to a couple.

Thanks again guys. Looking forward to doing some cool shit with my soon to be new Jeep.
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IBTJn
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

outcold wrote:
Thanks alot guys Very Happy Some of the sites I have posted before with my V-dub were loaded with asshats.
Looking forward to doing some cool shit with my soon to be new Jeep.
rofl Yea...we know all about asshats! rofl

Look forward to seeing some more pics' after your purchase, too. thumbs

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AggieDog
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, where's that new TJ? .............LOL Very Happy
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ZONA
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Joined: 02 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: My thoughts.......... Reply with quote

First off, I also recently purchased a brand new X model 2005 Wrangler.

My specs and price straight from the dealer (after about 4 days of instense negotiating.......always fun to get those suckers pissed off at you by keep asking more money off........hahaha!

2005 Wrangler X
3.07 gears
Hard Top
4 speed automatic

Aftermarket items added via dealer by my request

Chrome front and rear tube bumpers and nerfs (just like on your pics)
33X12.5X15 BFG AT's (with chrome 15 deep rims)
3" TeraFlex lift

Out the door for $25,500.00 (including tax and license)

Now........I knew I was going to go offroad with it so that's why I got the larger tires and lift. I was a newbie to the 4X4 sport so I had no idea at all that those gears would suck so bad. I could barely pass a moped on the highway and going offroad was no fun at all, unless it was a moderate trail with the occasion dirt ruts. I also was getting horrible gas mileage.

Don't think that a higher gear, such as 3.07 means you will be getting great fuel economy with large tires. You are wasting tons of gas just to get the thing moving with 33" tires.

If you like Chrome bumpers then get em. I like em, so I did. Alot of the hard core guys think they are sissy but to each his own. They mount right to the frame so you can get pulled up a hill with no worries. The chrome nerfs are the only thing that could get in your way if you get too brave. Mine have scraped a few times but nothing major. The jeeps have a very short wheel base and mine clear almost every time, with the larger tires and lift of course.

Don't worry about your D35 rear axle mate, unless you are going to do stuff that is really extreme. Most of the horror stories you hear about broken axles are from a few things. I've did my homework on this because I was worried too after reading the horror stories. Most of the local shops here, and a few sites online, have said that 90% of the time they see broken axles is due to guys laying on the gas pedal and the jeeps gets hopping and they come down with the tires spinning and instant traction mean wham, broken axle splines. Resistance is the other key factor. If your front wheels are against a rock step for example and the rears are also, too much force could break something. Best way to test what it can do is easy climbs at first and start doing harder stuff as you go. Going easy on the gas, and airing down your tires to 20 PSI (from 35 PSI) to get good grip is also key. If you don't air down some, they can spin on you more easily. Lastly, you should get lockers in the rear. Power to both wheels is crucial to climbing slowly and safely. I didn't think so at first until I did about 4 trails without one. All the time watching guys with same vehicle, and sometimes a lesser vehicle (stock) do what I was trying to do with the greatest of ease because they were locked in rear. I was spinning out way too much. That's what you don't want! I was also kind of nervous. I started a climb and just wanted to get the hell up as fast as I could to get out of my danger zone. Big mistake but you have to learn somehow. As I did more trails and did more difficult climbs, I forced myself to just take it easy and go slow. You get used to it and overcome the fear.

I'm no hard core guy but I have started to go on more increasingly difficult trails and knew I needed some changes. Not alot of cash in pocket so this is what I did for exactly $1,150.00 (again, negotiating prices) and now my rig can do some very tough trails and I have no problems at all. I've recently did Broken Arrow, Soldier Pass and Grease Spoon in Sedona and it was EASY once I had the lockers on and aired down to 20PSI. I've also done FR42, and a few others moderate trails with some difficult sections. I have to just say that although kind of short and high traffic due to it's popularity, Broken Arrow is one awesome trail.

I had my gears redone to 4.11 (using stock Dana Spicer gears) both front and back, and had a LockRight locker put in the rear, out the door for $1150.00. Not bad at all.

Alot of idiots kept telling me I would hate the LockRight's because of the clicking noise when it went into open diff but honestly, you don't even hardly hear them. At first I was doing this as a temp locker because it was only $200.00 and was planning to put an ARB or OX in the rear in a few years when I got the money, but I was impressed with what I could do with those and for the cost, they are just fine.

OK, I rambled on long enough. Seriously, don't worry about your D35 dude. As long as you aren't sloshing through 2 feet of thick mud and hitting the pedal to the metal, or going over monster boulders that are 3 feet high, you will be more then fine. I've done steps so far that are about 1.5 to 2 feet high and I didn't have any problems. You might with a smaller tire though. Maybe. I say that because there was a stock Taco with TRD Off Road Pkg that went with me and he did everything I did but just had to go a little slower. I was impressed with what he could do though. Most of it came down to the lockers and airing down the tires.

Reply back if you have any questions.

This is a simple flex on Broken Arrow
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'drack
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: My thoughts.......... Reply with quote

ZONA wrote:
Alot of the hard core guys think they are sissy but to each his own.


I'm hardly 'hardcore', but I don't think they're sissy. Ungawdly, ghastly, and too retro for me, maybe, but not sissy Mr. Green . Seriously, we're talking different climate zones here, but if you take chrome anything (wheels, bumpers, blinker fluid resovoirs) and scratch it around here, it's gonna turn to rust (prolly can even make a nice time lapse photographer thing outta it) around here. Now that shiny and pretty new accessory looks like hell because it's got that ever so present bit of orange adorning it. Buff it, wet sand it, do whatchaya want to it, but it ain't going away and chances if you wheel the thing even the mildest, scratches and nicks are gonna occur. I'm completely turned off by the whole style thing too, prefer the stock look, but unfortunatelly they only seem to make them with the tin foil from the factroy so they get beat up in a hurry Confused . Anyways, that's it with the fluff...it's apples and oranges and no one should ever make up their mind based on the cosmetic disparages ya may receive on the internet......even it is ugly, jk Mr. Green .

I think (well, I know) the reference of 3.07's and good gas mileage was placed in the context of retaining a stock setup. With the OEM 27~29" tires and that gearing, mileage will be great (for what the vehicle is anyway). Now, add bigger tires and you're gonna be making a lot of folks in oil infested countries richer. Not just the gearing, but you're talking more resisitance. Bigger, wider tires have more of a contact patch. More contact means more friction which is gonna add to the rolling resistance which, well you know. Unsprung weight is gonna zoom now since the bigger tires, wheels and what not are tossed into the equation. Even more of a hit to the mpg equation. Wait, we're lifting it. Higher center of gravity, more drag underneath...more wind resistance. Yah, it sucks. Hell 33's and anything ain't gonna get 'good' mileage anymore just because of the above reasons, but ya can do what you need to just to make it liveable. So the long and short is, as soon as you start making any kinda modifications to the vehicle, yes be expected to see suffering in many performance related categories.

The D35. Oh my, how that thing has got it's ass kicked from here to hell and back on forums across the cyber world. It's not the antichrist with splines, but there are many other desireable options out there (if you plan to significantly modify and use the vehicle to it's capabilities). See, that last disclaimer there makes a big difference. Seems everyone that can register to a site and manage to type a sentence seems to assume that everyone and they're brother is gonna mod they're Jeep and wheel the piss outta it. Most don't and waste a ton of cash just to commute. You hit on perhaps the biggest reason I've seen 35's blow....heavy on the stupid pedal. Ultimately, that'll break any axle..just the 35's seem to go quicker (for good documented reasons, not gonna compare a 35 v. 44 since I'm typing way too much now). 35's are fine, as long as you don't lock them, keep the gearing (numerically) lower than 4.56, don't run 33+ inch tires, and (most importantly) lay off the go pedal. Out of the 3 35's I've watched go the way of the dinosaur, they were all locked with 4.56's turning 33's (one was 34's) and had the gas pedal mashed to the floor. I've never seen one gernade pulling outta the parking lot, so in day to day use, I'd say they're fine. Wheel smart Smile .

Thing is to do what you like to do ('you' being whoever is reading), don't fall suspect to the pressure of everyone else has 'x,y.z' on their rig and a bunch of people I never (nor prolly will ever ) met will think I'm a Mary if I don't follow their instructions to a T. The best advise you find is from experience, you can usually tell that apart from the 'I don't know, but I read this while staying at a Holiday Inn Express' posts. Take it for what it's worth and run with it. Like I keep saying, not everyone needs big tires and lifts to enjoy a TJ. A stocker with the roof down is priceless in itself at times Smile .



Damn I can be verbose flipoff agree .
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WhatWasIThinkin
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrome aint Sissy limpwrist rofl

But like 'd says, minor scratches turn into major rust. Chrome structurally weakens the steel during the plating process making it more prone to damage than a powdercoat or painted part would.

I dont like that type of tube bumpers or steps. First of all, it looks like it just fell out of a 1978 JC Whitney catalog.....its terrible dated. Secondly, the stuff is made out of thin wall tubing, not much different from muffler pipe. Thirdly, even if it dosent get damaged on the outside and rust out, rust does form on the inside which isnt coated for protection and then rusts inside out.
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outcold
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I use any tires if I have the Diff loc Dana 35? The dealer told me they (WON'T) put the Ecco rims on the jeep cause” well he has to call the manufacturer and do a lot of paper work, there really is to much involved and we don't do that" I was like WTF. The only thing I can think of is with that rear end something may fail if larger wheels are put on it.

I really don't know. I'm grasping at straws as to why they won't put larger tires on. And for them to say they don't do that is asinine.
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Orng Beep
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Words from the wise to the masses.

bowdown 'd. bud


Combined w/ an owner, every Jeep has it's own personality. Weather your Jeep blends in or stands out and is either bone stock or dripping w/ mods, none of it means a thing if it's not what you want.

Bottom line is that Jeeps are just a pile of parts assembled in a manner that allows people like us to change, modify, eliminate, and add to. Some of us are happy w/ them stock. Some of us are happy w/ a few mods. Some of us are happy when or jeeps are evolving. Then some are never happy. Enjoy the journey! Cool


And for the bumpers,




there are pros and cons to all of them. This one happens to be a Shmittybuilt rear. As you can see, it's not quite as strong as I think it should be. The up side is that when i bought it, I also got a front bumber, and nerf bars for around $350. As a broke college student, this was a deal. I live in Michigan so I won't even mention the rust factor!

Happy Jeepn'!
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outcold
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh yeah and the salesman said the rims alone are $250 ea. This being the case it would be around 1750 +or- added. But the thing is I'm not buying them outright, I want to swap them out. This makes me not want to buy a new car now.
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KnightFire
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

outcold wrote:
oh yeah and the salesman said the rims alone are $250 ea. This being the case it would be around 1750 +or- added. But the thing is I'm not buying them outright, I want to swap them out. This makes me not want to buy a new car now.


This is why I got the aboslute cheapest POS rims they had and had new ones (Outlaw II) w/31" BFGs less than a week later...all for a LOT less than 1750.00

Might be something worth looking into...


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ZONA
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully your dealing with a reputible dealer and not some small time car lot. Most dealers are happy to help their potential customers get aftermarket stuff, as it should help them make the sale. If you can't do it through them, you can always get the loan for a higher dollar amount and then add the stuff on afterwards with the cash back you get from the dealer. At least this way you can still finance the entire package. If they don't want to do that, find another dealer bro.

And $250.00 for each rim? The better have solid gold lug nuts for that. Damn. You should be able to find chrome rims for under $100 each and steel for around $50 each. 33" tires should run you about $160 with the 5th tire free (if you can find a sale, like I did).

Yeah, I live in AZ and DRY is an understatement in Phoenix. No worries about rust here.

As for locking D35, it's no problem if you don't hit the gas hard and climb stuff you shouldn't. If you need to get winched from a spot (assuming you're not in snow) then you probably are at risk with that axle. If you go slow and take moderately difficult trails, you won't have a problem. You should get some good years from it. One of the things that may eventually happen is that you bend the housing some. You can get a truss to help with that or, what I plan on doing, is after 3 years, swaping out to a 44. I figure to get some use out of the 35's and use that 3 years to save for the 44. The last time I went out, the Jeep in front of me had a 44 and broke his axle on a step at Broken Arrow. I went up same step, and didn't break my 35. I know the 44 is a better axle and that's why I plan to eventually get one. Just not right at first.

They can be had for a good cost though. This link is one of many. You can get one with an Air locker and gears for $1500. If something happens and you do break your 35, it's not the end of the world. What I would do is shop around your city and find an aftermarket offroad shop and talk with them about what they would charge to go out and tweak your stuff so you can get it to pavement, then get a tow to the shop and have the 44 put on. I've already got that set up in case it ever happens to me. I have an "Action" plan in place and since I did it before hand, I got the best price on that and got all the phone numbers handy so my downtime is minimal. Thing is, you should get the gears done though because trying to find a 44 with a 3.07 gear will be hard to find. I don't even know of one. That's another reason I went with 4.11's and not higher. There are more 44's out there with that gear then any other so I can find one fast and cheap.



http://www.jeepsareus.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAU&Category_Code=Wrangler1

EDIT - OK, here is a forum link to some dudes talking about snapping axles and how people do it and is the 35 a big problem or just over hype. Most of the guys that snapped axles in this case would have snapped 44's doing same thing. Just as I mentioned before, how much gas and are the tires in a bind (stuck in holes, between rocks and what not). Just keep your tires out of the pinched areas and don't get crazy. You should be fine.

http://itsajeep.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=17040
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