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Motor Mods

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Scoob
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have been reading to much hype. Sounds like straight from the box or manufacturer ads. And Believing them Smile
TJ Apex wrote:

Carb spacers, ( or throttle body spacers) atomizes the air and fuel better making the combustion more efficient making more torque, HP and fuel mileage.
Explain to me how a Throttle body spacer is going atomize the air/fuel mixture on a fuel injected engine?

TJ Apex wrote:
If MSD made an ignition system for the 4.0, I'd buy it in a hart beat, a better spark means more fuel burned in the combustion chamber, also means better gas mileage and more HP, that also means that it would pass a smog test easer.

You don't suppose there is a reason why they don't make one for the Jeep. Maybe because its not going to help the I6 at all to double its spark. That even with all there hype only a couple suckers would buy it.

Since your not going to believe anybody that this stuff doesn't work I have a sure fire plan for your money.

A Tornado air spinner that will get you up to 14 Hp.
A AEM cold air intake for 13 Hp
A throttle body spacer that adds 3 Hp
Borla Headers for 15 Hp
Hi-performance Cat and cat back system is good for mild Hp gains.
there you go, 50 Hp right there alone.
Add a Accell super coil and a Jet performance computer chip in it for another 50 Hp. and you have turned your mild mannered I6 into a 300 HP fire belching monster ready to tackle any trail

Just don't get mad at me when your $1200.00 only ups your I6 output to 194 HP instead of 300.
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KnightFire
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Location: Hanover, MD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guesswho369 wrote:
Speaking of headers and exhaust - I had the hop put a Magnaflow bolt on with a 2 1/2 inch pipe and Banks Torque tube headers on my jeep. The pipe leading from header back however scales down to 2-inch, and I'm still using the factory converter. The guy at the shop insisted that if I ran 2 1/2 inch all the way I'd lose back pressure. Is anyone else running 2.5 all the way? It's a 97 4-cyl.


2.5" is too large for a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder low HP motor. It's NOT the loss of back pressure that's the concern, ideally you DON'T want back pressure, it the loss of exhaust velocity when you run too large of an exhaust pipe on a motor. Velocity and volumetric efficiency are the keys here. By running a too large of a pipe you lose your velocity/efficiency on the low end of the RPM spectrum, but gain in the upper RPMs. Seeing how you wouldn't see the net results until after the Jeeps power band, it's a fruitless effort.

Think of it like this, you don't want the biggest pipes possible, you want the smallest pipes possible that retain volumetric efficiency and exhaust velocity in the power band of the motor.

KnightFire
_________________
2002 TJ Wrangler X
Patriot Blue 4.0L
Check Website for Mods/Photos

Amsoil Dealer


Last edited by KnightFire on Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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KnightFire
Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Location: Hanover, MD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoob wrote:
You have been reading to much hype. Sounds like straight from the box or manufacturer ads. And Believing them Smile
TJ Apex wrote:

Carb spacers, ( or throttle body spacers) atomizes the air and fuel better making the combustion more efficient making more torque, HP and fuel mileage.
Explain to me how a Throttle body spacer is going atomize the air/fuel mixture on a fuel injected engine?

TJ Apex wrote:
If MSD made an ignition system for the 4.0, I'd buy it in a hart beat, a better spark means more fuel burned in the combustion chamber, also means better gas mileage and more HP, that also means that it would pass a smog test easer.

You don't suppose there is a reason why they don't make one for the Jeep. Maybe because its not going to help the I6 at all to double its spark. That even with all there hype only a couple suckers would buy it.

Since your not going to believe anybody that this stuff doesn't work I have a sure fire plan for your money.

A Tornado air spinner that will get you up to 14 Hp.
A AEM cold air intake for 13 Hp
A throttle body spacer that adds 3 Hp
Borla Headers for 15 Hp
Hi-performance Cat and cat back system is good for mild Hp gains.
there you go, 50 Hp right there alone.
Add a Accell super coil and a Jet performance computer chip in it for another 50 Hp. and you have turned your mild mannered I6 into a 300 HP fire belching monster ready to tackle any trail

Just don't get mad at me when your $1200.00 only ups your I6 output to 194 HP instead of 300.


LOL, ummm you do know that HP modification numbers just can't be simply stacked together and added up...right? It doesn't work that way...do some motor work, get some track time and watch a few dynos...then you'll get a better idea of how it all works together.

I dunno where you getting your HP numbers from...I know that I'd LOVE to find a 'chip' and ignition system that netted 50HP!!! LOLOL. rofl

KnightFire
_________________
2002 TJ Wrangler X
Patriot Blue 4.0L
Check Website for Mods/Photos

Amsoil Dealer
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guesswho369
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick answer. I guess the job now is figuring out the right pipe size to retain volumetric efficiency and exhaust velocity...
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KnightFire
Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Location: Hanover, MD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guesswho369 wrote:
Thanks for the quick answer. I guess the job now is figuring out the right pipe size to retain volumetric efficiency and exhaust velocity...


Stick with the 2", you should be good to go with that.

JMHO

KnightFire
_________________
2002 TJ Wrangler X
Patriot Blue 4.0L
Check Website for Mods/Photos

Amsoil Dealer
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Scoob
Member


Joined: 13 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KnightFire wrote:

LOL, ummm you do know that HP modification numbers just can't be simply stacked together and added up...right? It doesn't work that way...do some motor work, get some track time and watch a few dynos...then you'll get a better idea of how it all works together.

I dunno where you getting your HP numbers from...I know that I'd LOVE to find a 'chip' and ignition system that netted 50HP!!! LOLOL. rofl

KnightFire


Did you miss the part about fire belching? It was not meant to be serious. As far as the ignition system and chip change just keep reading the boxes I am sure you can find some that will claim massive "DYNO" hp gains between the 2 of them. If they put them HP gains on the box it must be true right?
It appears all that track and dyno work of yours was wasted if you think you can take everything that works on a 350 and apply it to in-line 6 and get the same results.

your right when you say "I guess that the basic logic that applies to other motors, couldn't possibly apply to the 4.0L motor as well... " when you compare a naturally aspirated V8 to a fuel injected I6 or 4 Cyl.

The most knowledgeable Jeep around the net ( ehirner,Keithtj,Stu Olson, MRBlaine, & Jerry Bransford to name a few) all agree these things do very little to help a jeep.

If your not willing to listen to all these people that know far more then you about Jeeps, By all means get all the little doo dads and let the placebo effect take over.
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TJ Apex
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Location: Mountains of SoCal. 6257 elev.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to get an idea of what some of you guys and gals have done and I think I got it.
As I said before I don't want to set the earth a blaze, I have other means for that.
_________________
2002 Wrangler Apex
Why do I have to press one for English?!
Welfare recipients should pass a drug test to get paid…

02' Apex Edition,
2" BB, 31" BFG AT's


Last edited by TJ Apex on Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KnightFire
Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Location: Hanover, MD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoob wrote:
KnightFire wrote:

LOL, ummm you do know that HP modification numbers just can't be simply stacked together and added up...right? It doesn't work that way...do some motor work, get some track time and watch a few dynos...then you'll get a better idea of how it all works together.

I dunno where you getting your HP numbers from...I know that I'd LOVE to find a 'chip' and ignition system that netted 50HP!!! LOLOL. rofl

KnightFire


Did you miss the part about fire belching? It was not meant to be serious. As far as the ignition system and chip change just keep reading the boxes I am sure you can find some that will claim massive "DYNO" hp gains between the 2 of them. If they put them HP gains on the box it must be true right?
ROFLOL, if you say so...

It appears all that track and dyno work of yours was wasted if you think you can take everything that works on a 350 and apply it to in-line 6 and get the same results.
Umm no not quite, but the THEORIES are the same.

your right when you say "I guess that the basic logic that applies to other motors, couldn't possibly apply to the 4.0L motor as well... " when you compare a naturally aspirated V8 to a fuel injected I6 or 4 Cyl.
Eh?! Do you even know what naturally aspirated means? Fuel delivery has nothing to do with induction method.

The most knowledgeable Jeep around the net ( ehirner,Keithtj,Stu Olson, MRBlaine, & Jerry Bransford to name a few) all agree these things do very little to help a jeep.

If your not willing to listen to all these people that know far more then you about Jeeps, By all means get all the little doo dads and let the placebo effect take over.
Hrmm I get 18/19mpg @80mph on a slightly lifted/bigger tired Jeep and never have to shift from 5th to pass (MUCH better mpg and passing power than OEM with 27" tires BTW) and out leg my friends 4.0L Jeeps on a constant basis...If those are placebo effects, I'll take them.



Cool

KnightFire
_________________
2002 TJ Wrangler X
Patriot Blue 4.0L
Check Website for Mods/Photos

Amsoil Dealer
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TJ Apex
Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Location: Mountains of SoCal. 6257 elev.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know what Volume metric efficiency is besides myself and KnightFire?
_________________
2002 Wrangler Apex
Why do I have to press one for English?!
Welfare recipients should pass a drug test to get paid…

02' Apex Edition,
2" BB, 31" BFG AT's
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Scoob
Member


Joined: 13 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ Apex wrote:
Does anyone know what Volume metric efficiency is besides myself and KnightFire?


All your self proclaimed knowledge yet still waiting for your higher intelligence to tell me how a throttle body spacer is going to increase the atomization of of the air/fuel mixture of a fuel injected engine?
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Code3TJ
Hacker
Hacker


Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Location: Uzbekistan

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoob wrote:
TJ Apex wrote:
Does anyone know what Volume metric efficiency is besides myself and KnightFire?


All your self proclaimed knowledge yet still waiting for your higher intelligence to tell me how a throttle body spacer is going to increase the atomization of of the air/fuel mixture of a fuel injected engine?

Knock the shit off. Rolling Eyes
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WhatWasIThinkin
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Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Epping New Hampsha

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*opens door*

*sticks head in*

*looks around to see whats going on*

*wonders if some hope is left*

*gets whacked by thrown cresent wrench*

*recoils backwards*

*closes door*

*thinks aloud*

"dammit....now I'll never get to sell them Type R stickers that not give 10 extra HP but are the magic that causes so called bolt-on engine mods HP to stack"
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TJ Apex
Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Location: Mountains of SoCal. 6257 elev.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All your self proclaimed knowledge yet still waiting for your higher intelligence to tell me how a throttle body spacer is going to increase the atomization of the air/fuel mixture of a fuel injected engine?


Now, here’s a lesson for Scoob, Throttle body injection (or TBI), is much like a carb, it mixes fuel and air the same way as a carb, Meaning the air and fuel mixes in to the intake plenum to create a "wet intake charge", it even looks like a carb, but with no float bowls. The only difference is, a throttle body uses a computer to make adjustments to the air fuel ratio rather than using a screwdriver to change jets and power valves.

A multiport fuel injection (inline 6 cylinder engines do not utilize this system) has a "dry plenum". This means the intake plenum does not have fuel and air being mixed in this area. The fuel is injected directly in to the combustion chamber and has one or sometimes two injectors per cylinder.


A TBI spacer works much like a carb spacer, in that it creates turbulence in the intake plenum area, this turbulence atomizes the air and fuel more efficiently to create torque and horsepower.

You are right on one thing, If you have multiport injection, a throttle body spacer will not work.

Here ends the lesson

And yes, I am very knowledge when it comes to motors Scoob Finger
_________________
2002 Wrangler Apex
Why do I have to press one for English?!
Welfare recipients should pass a drug test to get paid…

02' Apex Edition,
2" BB, 31" BFG AT's
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Keithtj
ARLI$$
ARLI$$


Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Location: Out of jail now

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

let's let things cool down for a few days and then we will open it back up as long as it stays civilized.
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Code3TJ
Hacker
Hacker


Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Location: Uzbekistan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's from Mopar. It's a book called Jeep Engines and if you want to build an engine for racing, I'd highly recommend buying it.

Stage I
Set timing for max horsepower
High Performance Hydraulic Camshaft
Valve Seal Package
Valve Spring - conical
Conical Retainer
Computer
Exhaust Headers
Low Restriction Exhaust
(est. 10 to 20 hp gain over stock)

Stage II
Same as Stage I except for the following items:
High Performance Hydraulic Camshaft
Centerline Cam with Bushing Kit
Backcut Valves
High Performance Computer
Engine Oil Cooler
(est. 15 to 25 hp gain over stage I)

Stage III
Same as Stage I & II except for the following:
Increase Compression Ratio
Heavy Duty Rod Bolts and Nuts
High Perforamnce Hydraulic Camshaft
Ported Cylinder Head
Intake Manifold Attaching Package
High Octane Gas
(est. 20 to 30 hp over Stage II)

Obviously, some of this you wouldn't want to do on a "street" engine and aren't smog legal. But it'll give you some ideas as well as any part number you could ever want.

Now play nice. Wink
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