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Taking off rear sway bar, whatdya think??

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Black2001TJ
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:23 pm    Post subject: Taking off rear sway bar, whatdya think?? Reply with quote

Sooo, do I really need it there? What if any difference would I feel on the highway - this is my daily driver?
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ThePhantum
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Taking off rear sway bar, whatdya think?? Reply with quote

Black2001TJ wrote:
Sooo, do I really need it there? What if any difference would I feel on the highway - this is my daily driver?

DON"T DO IT MAN!

Seriously, on a leaf sprung rear I would say go for it...but not on coils. You run the risk of having the spring actually fall out during full articulation. Shocked

Also, if you disco the rear, you lose downforce on the tire still on the ground if the suspension is fully extended. The antiswaybar actually exerts downforce on the axle which can keep you moving in low traction situations. No downforce on the axle at full droop = you're not gonna move... Plus removing the rear swaybar can contribute to a tipover or rollover on steep or severely offcamber terrain.

Have you noticed that not a single reputable lift manufacturer makes a quick rear swaybar disconnect? There's a good reason...disconnecting the rear doesn't help, it truly degrades the offroad performance of the TJ's suspension.

My $0.02

Steve
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Last edited by ThePhantum on Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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DozerDan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes you need it, yes you will notice, no dont take it off.
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Black2001TJ
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!! Thanks guys, damn, I've read about folks doing this in the past, but never got a detailed reason why not to.. Thanks for the help!
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ThePhantum
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, if it was leafs I would be all for it. Leaf sprung rears function differently than coil sprung ones...I haven't run a rear sway on the XJ for a while now...but I wouldn't even think about running without the front on it...but that's the front. Mr. Green



Steve
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Jeepfreak
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of have to disagree with all that. You may lose some downforce on the rear tire but that is only to an extent because at some point the rear swaybar is just going to be lifting the drooping tire off the ground. However full droop with out the rear swaybar will be a much bigger drop and therefore will keep the tires in contact with the ground for a longer period.

You shouldn't lose your springs because of it either as long as your shocks are the right length. If your shocks are too long then the springs may slip past the bump stop and fall out, so make sure your shocks are the right length, or put on some limiting straps.

Also the unstability on offcamber situations really depends on the springs that are under your jeep. I've always had R.E. springs and haven't had any problems with the jeep feeling like it wants to roll. I haven't been running a rear swaybar for sometime now, and my jeeps got 8" springs under it. Now if you have really soft springs like skyjacker springs then you may have a problem.

I love not having the rear swaybar on my jeep it allows the rear to droop way out. My suggestion to you is to take it off, drive around with it off, go wheeling with it off, and then if you don't like it just put it back on. I mean it is only a few bolts that holds it on anyway. Just be careful if you have a spool and you take it off, your jeep will do large wheelies while turning sharp and giving it gas. Whatever you do have fun with it.
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Jeepfreak
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O yea highway driving wont be affected at all as long as you keep the front swaybar conected when on the pavement. My jeep was my daily driver for a long time, I even drove it down the interstate the way it is now nearly everyday 30 miles oneway.
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ThePhantum
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not trying to start an arguement here...merely to elaborate on my point....Leave it connected, you'll be better off both on-road and off-road.

If you are relying on your shocks to stop the spring from coming unseated...then the shocks are too short. A shock, properly sized for a certain amount of lift, will normally allow the spring to come unseated. As the rear does not have a spring retaining bolt...you run the risk of having the spring drop out. This, however, is not the determining factor for leaving the rear bar in place, as you can fab up a retainer to keep the spring on it's perch...

The true issues are stability and downforce. Stability on offcamber terrain was already discussed above and I have nothing to add to it here.

So on to downforce...additional axle travel is only helpful up to a point. Beyond that point, any additional articulation gained at the rear (without the rear swaybar) is unusable articulation due to there being no down-force on the axle. So the tire can't really dig in and help propel the vehicle forward. The axle is just "flopping around" at that point. If you've ever seen a skidding tire trying unsuccessfully to move a Jeep up a ramp at a ramp-fest, you would know that just a few additional pounds of downforce on that axle (as could be exerted by the anti-swaybar) can keep you moving where a totally disconnected axle can leave a tire spinning ineffectively.

The rear swaybar is relatively soft and less than half of the diameter of the front anti-swaybar. So the rear bar really doesn't limit travel that much. The extra 1" of so of articulation you will get out of removing the bar is unusable for the reasons stated above and before.

A better solution would be something like a Currie Anti-rock system, which basically gives you adjustable downforce. The concept is that you would reduce the stiffness up front and increase it in back so you have more balanced offroad performance. This is a good approach, but works best if you have a locker or two as you still do have sway bars connected. The real tradeoff is on the road...you see on a 'normal' vehicle, there is usually a stiff front and a milder rear sway bar. The reason is that if you hold the front wheels more parallel to the body and let the rear flex, then you will have understeer in a too-fast corner. Understeer (when the front wheels skid) is much easier for the "normal driver" to control than oversteer (when the rear wheels skid out first). The Currie system moves you into an oversteer situation...and with the short wheelbase that could be pretty hairy...even at slower speeds, especially in an emergency manuver. Shocked

If you drive on the highway regularly, then disconnects in front and stock in the rear are your best all-around solution. You could also spend some money on control arms with flex joints too.

If you want a balanced rig that doesn't need trail-side disconnecting, AND you don't depend on your rig for daily highway driving, the Anti-Rock is a good system.

Don't make me bust out the math on ya...I am an engineer... Mr. Green

Rock On!

Steve
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Jeepfreak
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have to disagree with your statement that the rear swaybar provides downforce on the drooping tire. This would be the case if the rear swaybar were set up like a lever with a single pivot point in the middle of the bar, however as they are setup it is not. As one tire is compressed upward the swaybar transfers that across the vehicle and then "pulls" the other tire up as well. This inturn creates a leveling affect during cornering which is the purpose of the swaybar. Having said that I am still maintaining that the rear swaybar only decreases the amount of contact pressure that the drooping tire has. When you can show me mathematicaly that the lifting action casued by the swaybar on the drooping tire results in an increase in the downforce of that tire, I'll yield and believe your arguement.

At anyrate I still think that it is a matter of preference and he should atleast try it to see if he likes it or not. And I also have to agree with you that the currie Antirocks are the best solution if you have the money for them.

By the way I am a Junior level Engineering student so all of that mechanics material is fresh in my head so go ahead and brake out the numbers Mr. Green
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Keithtj
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this is like watching Hardball! I don't understand how it works, but here is my question. do you run a greater risk of damage with it disconnected, whether it be roll over, spring popping out, or tearing something up?
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Jeepfreak
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having it diconnected shouldn't tear anything up, I mean you don't tear anything up when you disco the front one right. As far as roll overs are concerned it depends on the springs. Having it disco. does make the jeep less stable however if the springs are stiff enough then lean angles are not effected that much. However if you have really soft springs then any small lean may feel like a big one. As far as losing the springs goes as long as your shocks are the correct length then you should not ever lose the springs, the swaybar does nothing to keep the springs under the jeep other than maybe limiting the flex so the springs don't unseat fully. I don't have a rear swaybar on mine and my springs completely unseat and I haven't ever lost a spring.


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WhatWasIThinkin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Im not an engineer, I just play one on .......oh nevermind! Finger

I say, on a rear coil sprung vehicle used for off roading, leave the rear swaybar on for safty reasons.

The main example I can give. If the rear sway is disco'd, of course just like the front you will have a major increase in flex......too much if the front is disco'd as well, for either off camber or steep decents. The swaybar acts as an anchor of sorts and keeps the ass planted. On a steep decent down a hill either while crawling or on the brakes can cause the disco'd rear to want to roll the weight towards the front because you no longer have the anchoring effect creating the chassis to lay low like it would if the rear is attached as normal.

Make sence? Shocked
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kygreenyj
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think we might need freebody diagrams of either side of the axles front and rear... i guess you could estimate everything but actual numbers would be better Very Happy
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DozerDan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeepfreak wrote:
I
By the way I am a Junior level Engineering student so all of that mechanics material is fresh in my head so go ahead and brake out the numbers Mr. Green


4 7 9 11... those enough for you.


during my time as an engineer i learned that school learned engineering and practical engineering have nothing to do with each other
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hillstrubl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i was an engineer too,

a "with honors" BS mech-e with the ability to change oil is about as common as a slammed wrangler using 4wd
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